Black Muslims : Greatest men in the earth and the sky

Clyde C Coger Jr

going above and beyond
PREMIUM MEMBER


The only thing about this noor100, is that the speaker for Islam took that verse completely out of context, and away from the intended purpose. Its a parable about the Parousia, the second coming, and the judgement thereafter:

Luke 19:27

King James Version (KJV)
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke 19:27&version=KJV


This can easily be determined from these verses, which begin parable and precedes the verse in question; the parable serves to clarify their misunderstanding, not to promote Jihad, as claimed:


Luke 19:11-12

King James Version (KJV)
11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.

12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.


Also, I must add, the Christian spokesman was far from equipped to balance the conversation. In fact, the Muslim was over bearing and relentless, pressing and pushing his point, not letting the Christian get a word in edge wise.
 

noor100

Well-Known Member
MEMBER
The respected Shaykh I believe is very familiar with the bible, being raise up in a Christian [salvation army] family. Perhaps there are different interpretations of this verse. Many things you have said elder concerning your interpretations of the bible, i'm sure most Christians would not agree with.

As you know there are other verses in the bible that shows that Jesus [as] was not as meek as some would claim. For instance the story of him running the money-changers [those that deal in interest/usuary] out of the temples.

My personal opinion is that Jesus [as] was a righteous Prophet of Allah whom 'history got watered down'. Yes he had humility [as all Prophets [PEACE BE UPON THEM ALL] did but he was no wimp by any means. Prophets went through great testing and hardships. The sign of a true Prophet. A weaker man would not have endured.

Concerning the Shaykh in the video. The host of the show have invited other Christians clergy to debate with him but they have all refused. Perhaps you would like to take on the challenge.
The show is based in Jamaica.
 

Clyde C Coger Jr

going above and beyond
PREMIUM MEMBER
The respected Shaykh I believe is very familiar with the bible, being raise up in a Christian [salvation army] family. Perhaps there are different interpretations of this verse. Many things you have said elder concerning your interpretations of the bible, i'm sure most Christians would not agree with.

As you know there are other verses in the bible that shows that Jesus [as] was not as meek as some would claim. For instance the story of him running the money-changers [those that deal in interest/usuary] out of the temples.

My personal opinion is that Jesus [as] was a righteous Prophet of Allah whom 'history got watered down'. Yes he had humility [as all Prophets [PEACE BE UPON THEM ALL] did but he was no wimp by any means. Prophets went through great testing and hardships. The sign of a true Prophet. A weaker man would not have endured.

Concerning the Shaykh in the video. The host of the show have invited other Christians clergy to debate with him but they have all refused. Perhaps you would like to take on the challenge.
The show is based in Jamaica.


Ahh ... and therein lies the problem noor100, the Bible isn't up to varying interpretations, but unto line upon line, precept upon precept; it interprets itself.

No wonder there are over 300 different denominations, to include, non-denomination, can you believe that? Non-denomination is now a denomination.

So glad you mentioned those accounts whereupon Jesus, Yashua, Eashoa demonstrated emotion, passion and anger. But the wide agreement on the scripture in question continues to be, its a parable that speaks to the second coming, known as the Parousia, not Jihad.

If there is any way, the challenge can be lined up, I'm game. This gives me the opportunity to share with you that soon, I'm going to get my BlogTalkRadio show set up for broadcasting. Perhaps something can be arranged then, otherwise let me know what else is possible ... And don't stay away so long, lol, you know I'm concerned about you, whether the same is true for you about me.
 

macoo

Well-Known Member
MEMBER
Christians believe that Jesus is alive today, and many denominations believe him to be active. They also believe that he has been resurrected already, and that he will never die again. The Muslim position, however, is that he never died, and therefore is still alive. It says in the Quran, that the Jews claim:

“We killed Jesus Christ, the son of Mary, Messenger of God.”

However, God denies this, as the verse continues:

“But they killed him not, nor crucified him; It was only a likeness shown to them: Most certainly they killed him not. Rather, God lifted him up to Himself.” (Quran 4:157-8)

This action of lifting is literally an upward movement, physically being taken from the earth into heavens, just as he will be physically brought back on the wings of angels from the heavens to the earth when he returns. Christians estimate his age to be 31-33 years of age at ascension, because the synoptic Gospels are considered to describe approximately 1 year of his life. The Gospel of John purportedly describes 3 years of his life from the moment he began preaching, of which Luke says:

“And Jesus himself began to be about 30 years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph … and (he) was led by the spirit into the wilderness.” (Luke 3:23 and 4:1)

Muslim scholars agree. Hasan Basri said, “Jesus was 34, while Sa’eed bin Mussayyib said, “He was 33,” when he was lifted up to heaven.[1]

“And there is none of the People of the Book but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Judgment, he will be a witness against them.” (Quran 4:159)

God, here, is talking about the ‘People of the Book’ believing in Jesus before the latter dies well after he was lifted up into the heavens. The implication is that he is not yet dead. In fact, he is securely kept by God until he completes his appointed term. As God says in the Quran:

“It is God Who takes away the souls at the time of their death, and (the souls) of those that die not during their sleep. He keeps those for which He has ordained death and sends the rest for a term appointed.” (Quran 39:42)

And:

“It is God Who takes away the souls at night, and has knowledge of all that you have done by day, and raises you up again that a term appointed be fulfilled; then will you be returned unto Him. Then He will inform you of all that you used to do.” (Quran 60:60)

‘The term appointed’ denotes the numbered days of our lives, already known and confirmed by God. The word “to take away” is a promise made by God to Jesus which God will do when His messenger is threatened by disbelief. The Quran informs us that He told Jesus:

“Indeed I will take you (away) and lift you up to Myself and purify you from those who disbelieve…” (Quran 3:55)

Thus we have a promise of God fulfilled when he saved Jesus from crucifixion, and another that will be fulfilled when He returns Jesus to earth and he completes his life here - a promise confirmed in the revelation given to Mary at the annunciation:

“God gives you tidings of a word from Him, whose name will be Jesus Christ, son of Mary, held in honor in the world and in the hereafter, and one of those who are nearest (to God). He shall speak to the people in infancy and when middle-aged[2], and shall be of the righteous.” (Quran 3:45-46)

Since middle-aged is older than the early thirties, this prophecy concerns his speaking to the people after his return. So this second promise (that everyone will believe in him before he dies) concerns his second mission when he descends to earth again. When he arrives, he will be the same age as he left, and then he will live for another forty years.[3] The Prophet, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him, said:

“There is no prophet between me and him (Jesus), and he shall descend. He… will stay in the world for forty years; then he will die and the Muslims will offer the funeral Prayer for him.” (Abu Dawood, Ahmed)

The return of Jesus will be close to the end of time. In fact, his descent will be one of the major signs the final hour is due. The Quran discloses that:

“He (the son of Mary) shall be a known sign of the Hour; so have no doubt concerning it and follow Me.” (Quran 43:61)

His appearance will be followed by only two or three other unmistakable portents. Among these are the appearance of the beast[4], the wafting of the believers from the earth[5], leaving only disbelievers behind, and the rising of the sun from the west.[6]

The ten major signs, among which is the second coming of Jesus, are summarized in one hadeeth:[7]

“The Hour will not come until you see ten signs: the smoke; the False Messiah; the Beast; the sun rising from the West; the descent of Jesus son of Mary; the Gog and Magog; and three tremors - one in the East, one in the West, and one in Arabia, at the end of which fire will burst forth from the direction of Aden and drive people to the place of their final assembly.” (Ahmed)

May God save us from disbelief and preserve us from being among those who witness the final moments

 

Clyde C Coger Jr

going above and beyond
PREMIUM MEMBER
The respected Shaykh I believe is very familiar with the bible, being raise up in a Christian [salvation army] family. Perhaps there are different interpretations of this verse. Many things you have said elder concerning your interpretations of the bible, i'm sure most Christians would not agree with.

As you know there are other verses in the bible that shows that Jesus [as] was not as meek as some would claim. For instance the story of him running the money-changers [those that deal in interest/usuary] out of the temples.

My personal opinion is that Jesus [as] was a righteous Prophet of Allah whom 'history got watered down'. Yes he had humility [as all Prophets [PEACE BE UPON THEM ALL] did but he was no wimp by any means. Prophets went through great testing and hardships. The sign of a true Prophet. A weaker man would not have endured.

Concerning the Shaykh in the video. The host of the show have invited other Christians clergy to debate with him but they have all refused. Perhaps you would like to take on the challenge.
The show is based in Jamaica.



In my response to this post, I shared that I was creating a BlogTalkRadio show program:

http://destee.com/index.php?threads/greatest-men-in-the-earth-and-the-sky.77412/page-5#post-834974


Its been done and here's the link:

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/clyde-c-coger-jr

Sankofa, the Spoken Word
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Gracious

Well-Known Member
MEMBER
Christians believe that Jesus is alive today, and many denominations believe him to be active. They also believe that he has been resurrected already, and that he will never die again.
Greetings macco,

Please allow me to add a sense of accuracy concerning your above comment:

Christ-followers believe that the God we serve is SPIRIT! Christ-followers (Christians) "do" indeed believe that "Jesus The Christ" is well"within"the heart (the spirit) of all who've received Him! We also believe that "Jesus The Christ" when he walked among us, was fully human AND fully GOD!

Concerning our Messiah’s “giving up of the ghost”:

Christian’s believe that: “…The Word (Jesus of Nazareth)became flesh & dwelt among us” and received His Christdom when John baptized Him in the Jordan River.

Once crucified (enduring unimaginable, excruciating PHYSICAL anguish) at His Will, our Savior gave up the ghost! Meaning, our Lord & Savior … CHOSE to give His life, His human-life … as an atonement for the sin of the world! Thus providing a WAY, that all who would receive HIM might be saved!

So… YES! My God – My Lord & Savior CHOSE to give up HIS robe of flesh – His human life! And when we say that He died … we are truly saying that His fleshly form perished. Not His essence – His Spirit!

The Muslim position, however, is that he never died, and therefore is still alive. It says in the Quran, that the Jews claim:
“We killed Jesus Christ, the son of Mary, Messenger of God.”

However, God denies this, as the verse continues:

“But they killed him not, nor crucified him; It was only a likeness shown to them: Most certainly they killed him not. Rather, God lifted him up to Himself.” (Quran 4:157-8) ...
The above comments are not necessarily so, as this is subject to interpretation. Meaning, some Muslims do indeed “accept” the Christian beliefs regarding the Crucifixion of “The Christ”!

Mahmoud Ayoub states:

The Qur'an is not here speaking about a man, righteous and wronged though he may be, but about the Word of God who was sent to earth and returned to God.

Thus the denial of killing of Jesus is a denial of the power of men to vanquish and destroy the divine Word, which is for ever victorious! (The death of Jesus: Reality or Delusion. Muslim World 70 (1980) pp. 91–121)
 

macoo

Well-Known Member
MEMBER
The idea of Jesus dying on the cross is central to the Christian belief. It represents the conviction that Jesus died for the sins of mankind. The crucifixion of Jesus is a vital doctrine in Christianity; however Muslims reject it completely. Before describing what Muslims believe about Jesus’ crucifixion, it may be useful to understand the Islamic reaction to the notion of original sin.
When Adam and Eve ate from the forbidden tree in paradise, they were not tempted by a serpent. It was Satan who deceived and cajoled them, whereupon they exercised their free will and made an error in judgement. Eve does not bear the burden of this mistake alone. Together, Adam and Eve realised their disobedience, felt remorse and begged for God’s forgiveness. God, in his infinite mercy and wisdom, forgave them. Islam has no concept of original sin; each person bears responsibility for his own deeds.
“And no bearer of burdens shall bear another’s burden”. (Quran 35:18)
There is no need for God, a son of God, or even a Prophet of God to sacrifice himself for mankind’s sins in order to buy forgiveness. Islam refuses this view entirely. The foundation of Islam rests on knowing with certainty that nothing should we worshipped but God alone. Forgiveness emanates from the One True God; so, when a person seeks forgiveness, he must turn to God submissively with true remorse and beg forgiveness, promising not to repeat the sin. Then and only then will sins be forgiven.
In the light of Islam’s understanding of original sin and forgiveness, we can see that Islam teaches that Jesus did not come to atone for the sins of mankind; rather, his purpose was to reaffirm the message of the Prophets before him.
“.. None has the right to be worshipped but God, the One and the Only True God…” (Quran 3:62)
Muslims do not believe in the crucifixion of Jesus, nor do they believe that he died.
The Crucifixion​

Jesus’ message was rejected by most of the Israelites as well as the Roman authorities. Those who believed formed a small band of followers around him, known as the disciples. The Israelites plotted and conspired against Jesus and formulated a plan to have him assassinated. He was to be executed in public, in a particularly gruesome manner, well known in the Roman Empire: crucifixion.
Crucifixion was considered a shameful way to die, and “citizens” of the Roman Empire were exempt from this punishment. It was designed to not only prolong the agony of death, but to mutilate the body. The Israelites planned this humiliating death for their Messiah – Jesus, the messenger of God. God in his infinite mercy prevented this abominable event by putting the resemblance of Jesus on somebody else and elevating Jesus alive, body and soul, to heaven. The Quran is silent about the exact details of just who this person was, but we know and believe with certainty that it was not Prophet Jesus.
Muslims believe that the Quran and the authentic narrations of Prophet Muhammad contain all the knowledge mankind needs in order to worship and live according to God’s commandments. Therefore, if small details are not explained, it is because God in His infinite wisdom has judged these details to be of no benefit to us. The Quran explains, in God’s own words, the conspiracy against Jesus and His plan to outwit the Israelites and raise Jesus to heaven.
“And they plotted to kill Jesus and God planned too. And God is the Best of the planners.” (Quran 3:54)
“And because of their boasting, "We killed Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of God." But they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of Jesus was put over another man, and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge; they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely, they killed him not. But God raised him (Jesus) up unto Himself. And God is Ever All-Powerful, All-Wise.” (Quran 4:157-158)
Jesus Did Not Die​

The Israelites and the Roman authorities were not able to harm Jesus. God says clearly that He took Jesus up to Himself and cleared him of the false statements made in Jesus’ name.
“O Jesus! I will take you and raise you to Myself and clear you of the forged statement that Jesus is God’s son.” (Quran 3:55)
In the previous verse, when God said He “will take” Jesus, he uses the word mutawaffeeka. Without a clear understanding of the richness of the Arabic language, and knowledge of the levels of meaning in many words, it may be possible to misunderstand God’s meaning. In the Arabic language today the word mutawaffeeka is sometimes used to denote death, or even sleep. In this verse of Quran, however, the original meaning is used and the comprehensiveness of the word denotes that God raised Jesus to himself, completely. Thus, he was alive at his ascension, body and soul, without any injury or defect.
Muslims believe Jesus is not dead, and that he will return to this world in the last days before the Day of Judgement. Prophet Mohammad said to his companions:
“How will you be when the son of Mary, Jesus descends amongst you and he will judge people by the Law of the Quran and not by the law of Gospel. (Saheeh Al-Bukhari)
God reminds us in the Quran that the Day of Judgement is a Day that we cannot avoid and cautions us that the descent of Jesus is a sign of its nearness.
“And he, Jesus, son of Mary shall be a known sign for the Hour. Therefore have no doubt concerning it. And follow Me! This is the Straight Path.” (Quran 43:61)
Therefore, the Islamic belief about Jesus’ crucifixion and death is clear. There was a plot to crucify Jesus but it did not succeed; Jesus did not die, but ascended to heaven. In the last days leading up to the Day of Judgement, Jesus will return to this world and continue
his message.
 

Gracious

Well-Known Member
MEMBER
I hear you my friend, though our doctrine differs.

Too, from your comments I'm hearing, that you may be led to believe that Jesus The Christ is a man - a separate - human only being, that God spoke into existence to do (His/God's work)? Not so! Perhaps it might be of help to understand that if this is your belief ... then you have missed our Christian premise! Which is why I'd empathized The Christ's ... fully human - fully God existence. And I'd also shared, that when we as Christians speak and or infer of Jesus The Christ's death ... we are truly only speaking of his human demise! Again, our Savior lives eternally within the heart & soul of all who receives Him!

Please know that (whether we like & or accept it, or not) just as there are differing semantic opinions in the Christ-following faith; there are too, differing opinions in the Muslim faith. Having studied at length the Holy Qur'an, I am somewhat well-versed on what it is that you believe, my friend. Too, it might be helpful for you to understand that I have had the awesome blessing of conversing at length with several of your national & international leaders concerning your strains of doctrine.

So Yes!!! We are somewhat similar in much our doctrine ... yet ... we shall inevitably fall away from each other when it comes to this One core Christian concept. A concept holding the foundation of our faith - two words:
THE CHRIST !!!
 
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