Egypt : Egyptian Artifacts and British Museums

Queenie

going above and beyond
PREMIUM MEMBER
Feb 9, 2001
7,137
2,064
I am truly seeking a better understanding of something. Last weekend I was watching the Discovery Channel which was airing programs about Egypt. The stories were about Egyptian mummies that have been uncovered along with other types of things that were buried in the Pyramids. Many of the museums that hold these precious and priceless artifacts are located in Europe as a result of archeologists from those countries and their research going to Egypt to reveal its secrets to them. As I listened to the stories I felt that these other countries were violating something sacred and, although the information was quite interesting, they had no right to do that.

How is it possible that these 'foreign' countries can gain access and control over Egypt's property? Does Egypt sell them the rights to it or what? How does this work?
 

Ozzy

Active Member
MEMBER
Nov 2, 2003
27
1
Spain
>Hello NNQueen.

Most of the artifacts held by foreign countries were taken during a period when Egyptology was a solely European interest. Many of what was taken is small compared to that which was pilfered by the locals over hundreds of years, hence the reason most tombs are empty when found. King Tuts tomb was significant in that its treasures were intact not for its grandeur or its greater importance in Egyptian history compared to others. The argument by those who hold such treasures is that at this time there were no facilities nor local organizations capable of protecting nor storing these often delicate finds. Almost all was taken by the countries financing the excavations. Today no items are allowed out of Egypt, and if they are they remain the property of Egypt. There have been a few cases in recent history where items have been removed from Egypt without consent, the bust of Nefertiti being one, which is now in Germany.

Today there have been calls for the return of all removed artifacts to Egypt, which in a number of cases this in fact has happened. Mummies have been returned only in the last few months to the Egyptian authorities. The Argument now is, and it is expressed from both within the Egyptian Egyptology society as well as the countries holding then, that if it is all returned how could the average person appreciate the greatness of Egypt if they could not, like most of us, afford to go see it in Egypt. Regardless of the reasons, to which I feel there would be more than the fare share using this as and excuse to keep them, it does in some ways make a good point. I feel Egypt should be there for all, and I heard one compromise suggested that made perfect sense. This was, all artifacts should be the property of Egypt and its people, the items in countries other than Egypt could display and keep on "loan" only the artifacts. This would unfortunately give Egypt the power to remove anything they saw fit.

It should be pointed out that much of the science that is used and money given to support the salvation of many artifacts held in Egypt itself have been provided by other countries. The Cairo Museum has many problems still in the maintenance of artifacts, a percentage have perished because of insufficient facilities. This is also another reason Cairo expects financial support from countries involved in excavations.

The bottom line is, it would be nice to see all returned to Egypt, however it would become out of the average persons reach to ever have contact with such wonderful artifacts, and Egypt by no means has the capability at present to preserve them all.

Unfortunately Dr Hawass the head of Egyptology in Egypt is not a very popular man, and the trust to hand over everything is just not there, so i would not consider it possible for it to happen at present.
 

Sun Ship

Well-Known Member
MEMBER
Aug 31, 2003
1,630
38
Who ancestors are they?!!!!

Peace Sister NNQueen :bowdown:,

I think, the even deeper question is, who in Egypt has the right to claim providence over these sacred artifacts. Egypt is no longer a truly Kemetic (original Egyptians) country; its like giving Euro-Americans possession of Native American artifacts.

ONE MAN’S ARTIFACT IS ANOTHER MAN’S HOLY AND SACRED RELIC.

The Arab conquerors of Egypt have no more right or respect for the Ancient Egyptian legacy than the Europeans. Many of the original looters of these tombs were Arab bandits. Dr. John Hendrik Clarke* was always diligent, along with Dr. Chancellor Williams* and Drusilla Houston*, about exposing the Arab's counteractive role, as related to the history of Africa and Africans.

Let it be also known, that history proves, that many West African tribes migrated from the Nile valley and beyond, not excluding the Nubian/Sudanese of the Upper Nile.

*- As you know, the life work of these historians are extraordinary!.

Peace,

Brother Sun Ship,

P.S. – Dr. Hawass is an Arabian Uncle Tom and an Egyptian handkerchief head!!
 

Sun Ship

Well-Known Member
MEMBER
Aug 31, 2003
1,630
38
Ozzy, If you only knew who Black people were.

Ozzy___ Ozzy____ Ozzy

First of all it’s interesting you mentioned Diop, I guess you are aware of how Diop requested to perform scientific examinations of some particular pharaonic remains to ascertain microbiological material in order to measure the concentration of melanin in the epidermis, to prove that the dynastic kings were Black Africans.

Europeans and Egyptian curators turned him down.

You have to research this on your own, but this racist episode is very well known in the world of African Studies.

This is why so many African scholars are suspicious of the Arab conquerors that have dominated African history and politics.

Ozzy, I find it interesting that you can dialogue with descendants, of the oldest people in the history of the earth and talk about how they should give up their genetic memories to a “Johnny come lately”.

Your arrogance has overruled your intellect. You as a Spaniard, who country was ruled for over 700 years by Moorish Kings (711-1492), have the audacity to talk about, “who has rights”. The African-Asiatic Moorish People literally brought the Europeans out of the dark ages and into the renaissance. But regardless of their long and impressive rule this did not prevent the Spaniards from kicking them out of Europe and reclaiming the land and the cultures of the past and that which was left behind. The fact that these so-called “non-white” people could rule over Europeans for so long, has almost removed them from the pages of public history.

And you seem unaware of the western migrations of now West African tribes, some like the Yoruba, not reaching their present homeland until 800AD, then forming the Oyo empire (not to say there were not existing Black Africans in West Africa before then). You need to brush up on your African history. Matter of fact a lot of the work that Dr. Diop and Dr. Ben was doing dealt with the linguistic links in West Africans and Nilotic cultures.

When the more honest researchers and Egyptologist look for the primitive roots of Pharaonic Egypt, they find extraordinary and striking similarities, in abundance, in the Sub-Saharan cultures. In the end concluding that the Ancient Egyptians descended from Black Africans and not Mesopotamians.
 

goraddy

Well-Known Member
MEMBER
Jul 2, 2003
96
4
Interesting discussion!

One only needs to visit Kemet to see the obvious - it was a BLACK CIVILIVATION.

Just look at this break down of the Medu Neter

http://www.tehutionline.com/newpage9.htm

KMT: The Black City

by Akinjinde Bonotchi Montgomery

Kmt (Kemet) translated as the "Black Land" is a European Egyptological white lie. Almost the entire discipline agrees that the blackness that is referred to in the word kmt Kemet is the soil and not the black people that lived on the soil. European scholars will perform complex illogical mental gymnastics not to translate kmt Kemet as the "Black Community," " Black Town," or "Black City." They do this to avoid any idea or notion that the blackness that is referred to relates to the people who inhabit the land and not the soil. This confusion only exists because of racist scholars who attempt to cloud the facts of the text. The Medew Netcher is crystal clear if read correctly.

Perhaps Raymond O. Faulkner best illustrates this type of mental gymnastics in his book, A Concise Dictionary of Middle Egyptian. In which he translates, kmt "the Black Land," "Egypt". (p.286) The next word in his dictionary is kmt. These two symbols followed by a man and a woman with plural strokes forms a collective and must be translated as "the Black People" or "the Blacks." Faulkner translates kmt as "Egyptians"? He couldn’t bring himself to write what is clearly before his eyes kemetu "the Black People." To translate this word kmt kemetu as Egyptians is nonsense. Egypt is a Greek word .

James P. Allen in his grammar book An Introduction to the Language and culture of Hieroglyphs, in which he translate " kmt (noun) "Egypt" (literally "the Black" referring to the cultivated soil along the Nile.)" (p.470) These scholars can only translate kmt as "the Black" by ignoring this symbol , at the end of the word. This symbol is used as a determinative and it is provided to clarify and make more precise the meaning of the word. Was this omission of the determinative a major mistake by Mr. Allen? I don’t think so, later in his book he translates this symbol nwt as a determinative for town or settlement. (p.439) His translation should read kmt "the Black Town" or "the Black Settlement," this scholar couldn’t bring his mind to make the logical connection between , and its determinative , the symbol, according to him for town or settlement.

James E. Hoch, in his unpublished book, Middle Egyptian Grammar translates, ", kmt (place name) "Egypt" (literally "the Black Land")"(p.291) He also disregards the determinative , and translates kemet in the standard manner "the Black Land." He also translate the symbol nwt as "city" on page 263 of the same book, ", nwt "city." Mr. Hoch’s translation should by logic be read "the Black City."

Sir Alan Gardiner in his monumental book Egyptian Grammar gives the following translations, km "black" (adj.); kmt, "the Black Land," Egypt." (p.597)

On pages 31-33, Sir Gardiner provides a list of generic determinative one of which is the symbol , and he says it is used to denote a "town" or "village." He and the other refuses to translate this determinative at all when it is associated with kmt. To translate kmt, Kemet as the "the Black Land" is inconsistent with the logic that is established by the grammar rules of the Medew Netcher language.

The break down of the word kmt is as follows: the first symbol (coal) is a biliteral symbol that has two letters to its transliteration, the two letters it represents are km. The next symbol(owl) is a uniliteral and only have one letter to its transliteration m and in this word it is used as a phonetic complement. Which is used to reinforce the sound value of the m. The third symbol (bread) is also a uniliteral and represents the letter t. This gives the transliteration kmt. The fourth symbol (village with crossroads) nwt is used as a determinative to clarify the word in use. Therefore in the word this symbol is used to denote a city, village, or community the correct translation is "the Black City" or "the Black Community."

The people of the Nile Valley called their country Black for the same reason and in the same sense that Detroit is called a Black city and Africa is called a Black continent, the majority population of all three are Black peoples.

Some common words in Mdw Ntr that are associated with land have the symbol for land tA, ta as part of their composition.

, ta "land" "earth" "ground"

, tawy "the two lands"

nb-tawy "Lord of the Two Lands"

, Ta-merry "the Beloved Land" another name the people used for Kemet. The name most used now by Doc Ben for the land.

Why are European scholars translating , Kemet as the Black Land when there is not a single symbol in the word you can associate with land or soil? The fact that ancient Kemet was a African (Black) country is something we should not expect European scholars to accept, but we can point out how the racist, yurugu mind will response with mental nonsense when faced with facts which destroys its perverted worldview. Like the simple fact that ancient Kemet "the Black Community" was a nation of Kemetu "Black People."

A European Egyptologist once said, "you know we can’t let those Blacks into the field of Egyptology because they will destroy the discipline."
 

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