Science and Technology : Do You Believe In UFOs

frankster

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Aug 3, 2014
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Good morning frankster, hope you are doing well.

"Most if not all construction projects require a plan...blue print."

but the point was that were educated people who could make the blue prints for the pyramids. However, that was very specialized knowledge that everyone didn't have. Everyone who practices music may be able to read Mozart and Bach but that's different from creating that music. So the point is that just because intelligence existed and there were people who could engineer the pyramids, that doesn't mean that everyone could do it.
Yes and Moses is thus educated...everyone else given the money and blue print could have it done - thats my point

"
Knowing what a volcano is...would be considered general knowledge."

No, that's general knowledge now. Flying today is general knowledge but I couldn't tell you how to design a jet engine or even an electric car engine. We can't look back and assume that everyone knew something as common knowledge that wasn't common. Even if there were 1,000 volcanoes in the area, that doesn't mean they were erupting with any type of frequency. Most volcanoes are dormant. So if a volcano wasn't active how would THEY know it was a volcano? We can tell because we have instruments and we can see into the ground with ground penetrating radar. That's the only way WE know. So assuming they knew, without these capabilities, I don't understand.

Flying is not general knowledge....recognizing a airplane is.
Driving is not general knowledge but knowing what a car is general knowledge.
I feel safe in assuming that these people knew what a volcano is



"Jethro and his people was familiar with it as they told Moses about the burning bush that is not consumed."

??? According to Ex 3, Moshe is the one who discovered the burning bush. I don't see anything in thie chapter suggesting someone else saw this bush. The problem is, that if no one else saw what Moshe claimed to see then you don't know that he wasn't making it up in order to sell a story to a bunch of uneducated people that their God was real. Since this story was written after the fact, he simply could have used the eruption, which they all witnessed, and then filled in a back story that involved the same fiery elements. Again, no where elese is God rendered in this way; just in the Mosaic testimony.


wikipedia: "Elsewhere in the Mediterranean are pumice deposits that could have been sent by the Thera eruption. Ash layers in cores drilled from the seabed and from lakes in Turkey, however, show that the heaviest ashfall was towards the east and northeast of Santorini. The ash found on Crete is now known to have been from a precursory phase of the eruption, some weeks or months before the main eruptive phases, and it would have had little impact on the island.[19] Santorini ash deposits were at one time claimed to have been found in the Nile delta,[20] but this is now known to be a misidentification.[21][22]"

note: there was a precursory phase of eruption. If Moshe saw this then he had enough time to construct a story, travel, and convince people that there was about to be a cataclysmic event that their God would be behind. And of course... he's the messenger/god sent by God.
If it was a volcano, then Jethro and his family would not be living within a days walk from it, if he is tending Jethro's flock the the place where he is tending them would be a locale frequented by Jethro's family.
What we know about Volcanos is that when the become active it tends to be ongoing for several days if not years.
So if God was the Volcano in Jethro's Country how could also be in the Moses Camp.
They not talking about a volcano

"Now an actual volcano would consume the bush if it lit the bush as the description clearly declares it did."

Again... if Moshe is lying there is NO REASON to assume that there was even a bush at all. And why is it that the Midianite priest didn't convert to Judaism after witnessing the power of Yahweh when the bible says that there was a mixed multitude of Israelites and Egyptians who believed? You don't find this odd?
Jethro saw Yahweh as the most powerful God, and they worship Yahweh.
Not here saying that Moses Converted Jethro but more likely it would Jethro that Converted Moses...if you read between the lines.

"The Hebrew people lived in Egypt, time for word to travel is a not an issue."

Except, that the point I'm making to you is that it was THROUGH MOSHE that the word traveled. And being most likely educated by priests, Moshe created a story around the volcano.

volcano (n.)
1610s, from Italian vulcano "burning mountain," from Latin Vulcanus "Vulcan," Roman god of fire, also "fire, flames, volcano" (see Vulcan). The name was first applied to Mt. Etna by the Romans, who believed it was the forge of Vulcan.

source: https://www.google.com/search?q=etymology+of+volcano&rlz=1C1GCEU_enUS827US827&oq=etymology+of+volcano&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l4.4566j1j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

The same logic you're trying to apply to Egypt, look at how the Romans reacted to Mt. Etna. If we look at the etymology of the word we can trace it back to Romans and the fire god, Vulcan.

If Moses is a liar and a Con man as you contend then there is no reason to argue the point.
but if he is taken a face value and assume he is describing a actual experience then it is not a volcano but something else.



wikipedia: *Volca could therefore be a cognate of the Sanskrit words ulkā ("darting flame") and/or várcas- ("brilliance, glare").

The problem is... humans really can't get close to a volcano without advanced materials and very protective gear. If you cannot filter out the sulfur, you're dead. So no one in the ancient world would be able to report on exactly what a volcano was and they're only looking up at it, not down. This is like only looking up towards the brim of a paper cup. You can't see what's inside. So unless you can explain to me how they would have been able to observe a volcano without jumping to superstitious conclusions I'm left unconvinced that they knew what a volcano was when there wasn't even a word for it spreading around the planet until the Romans. And their explanation was superstitious in nature and shows that they weren't informed by any prior reporting, including Moshe's or anyone else who witnessed/survived the Minoan eruption.
I disagree you can get relatively close to volcano without protective gear....and yes it is dangerous but doable.

You listed a number of volcanoes but if they don't have reports of eruptions in the BC time period that doesn't help your case. They had no way of knowing these were volcanoes just because we do.

"Now you saying these people do not know the difference between smoke coming from an alter and smoke coming from a volcano. How stupid do you think these people are????"

Again... it's not about being smart. It's about being superstitious. In the exact same way that the Romans reacted to Etna and thought it was the forge of a the fire god, Vulcan, there's no reason to believe the Israelites weren't equally superstitious. Even those who did science even in modern times were often superstitious as well and applied superstition when they didn't know the natural origins of a thing. So why should people in ancient times be any different? Why would they differentiate smoke coming from an alter from smoke coming from a volcano? The only difference is scale. And that's why the smoke coming from the volcano was referred to as a "cloud". But even Moshe thought that he could correlate a small fire (burning bush) with a large fire. Because that's exactly what he did. So who's to say that when they burned an offering that they didn't think the fire was somehow God's way of "consuming" the meat. After all... it was being "consumed" by the fire. Add to this, the way the bible depicts the smell of burning animal flesh. The way that God is written to react to it implies he knew how it "tasted".

So... basically, meat eating humans were implying that God ate meat also, because by implication God could smell it as something that smelled good. Again... its not about being smart or stupid. It's about being superstitious. When you are superstitious you simply use your intelligence to defend it.


"Jethro has lived in the presence of the burning bush, he did not seemed scared just respectful....if he was scared he would moved."

There is no reason to believe the bush was always burning or that it burned before or after the encounter with Moses. The reason it burned was not a natural occurrence, according to Exodus 3, but rather because a "messenger" of God was speaking to Moshe from the flames. There's no need to believe an angel was just hanging out in a bush for no reason, and decided to talk once it saw Moshe. No, Exodus is pretty clear that this wasn't something Jethro saw or knew about. Furthermore, again we have an archetyping.

Ex 3 Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the MOUNTAIN OF GOD. 2 There the angel of the Lord appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up.

Then only other reference to anything even remotely close would be Genesis 22:2. And the reason I say that one is because it had to be a special mountain. But there's no reason, I can find, to call Horeb "the mountain of God" UNLESS... it is named this only after the inclusion of the burning bush in the story. And so now, again, the archetype is set up... mountain... fire... God. Come on, I know its fun to debate, but tell me you cannot see where I'm coming from at least.

Exodus 20:18 And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the MOUNTAIN SMOKING: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.

11 So that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of the LORD.

This might have been a problem for my argument if it weren't for verse 5

5 And king Solomon, and all the congregation of Israel, that were assembled unto him, were with him before the ark, sacrificing sheep and oxen, that could not be told nor numbered for multitude.

An actual cloud (As we know it) is a mass of water vapor or ice crystals suspended in the atmosphere. It forms when water condenses in the sky. Fog can be considered a type of low-laying cloud that is heavily influenced by nearby bodies of water.

So a few possibilities come to mind.
1- it was smoke from the burnt offerings but on a scale that was big enough for them to call a cloud
2- it was fog partially influenced by their activity along with a local water source.
3- it was steam or vapor as a result of putting out the fires from the burnt offerings

3, I think, is the most probable. Wouldn't they know that putting out a fire with water is going to create smoke? Of course. And would there be too much for them to stay inside of a tent? Yes. But does it mean they wouldn't use that as proof of the presence of God? Pastors and preachers lie ALL THE TIME, saying "God is here. He's in this room. I can feel his presence, yada yada yada." You've likely heard this many times. And yet, you felt nothing, just the energy in the room generated by believers. But pastors MUST, to some degree, say things like this in order to keep up with the Jones. They don't think they're lying because the believe God is everywhere and yet... if the pastor at another church says "God is here" you don't want people in your congregation to believe God doesn't "come by here".

Exodus 14:19-20
The angel of God, who had been going before the camp of Israel, moved and went behind them; and the pillar of cloud moved from before them and stood behind them. So it came between the camp of Egypt and the camp of Israel; and there was the cloud along with the darkness, yet it gave light at night. Thus the one did not come near the other all night.
So you saying this volcano Could be seen from Egypt but Jethro who lived under it and pastured his flocks on the mountain did not see it.....Thats like saying Christopher Columbus Discovered America


Here's the problem... When you're talking about the cloud in exodus its a "pillar". But the cloud in 1 Kings was simply inside a tent. I see pillars of clouds all the time everytime I pass by a factories or power plants that have exhaust stacks. And especially if the air is colder you can see what looks like cloud formation. But these wouldn't light up at night. What would light up at night is a FIRE. I repeat... clouds/smoke... are not a light source. If you have a pillar of "cloud/smoke" that is emanating light then there is a fire there. But you may not see it in the day because of the smoke and because it is diffusing with the light from the sun. But at night... you could see it.

Because its a volcano.
So you know what a pillar of smoke or cloud is now....Now in Numbers 12
5 Then the Lord came down in a pillar of cloud; he stood at the entrance to the tent




It was fun and i learned and shared what i thought with you....each one teach one - love
 

ZealotX

Well-Known Member
MEMBER
Jan 21, 2020
83
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"Flying is not general knowledge....recognizing a airplane is.
Driving is not general knowledge but knowing what a car is general knowledge.
I feel safe in assuming that these people knew what a volcano is"


That's because it's common knowledge to us. But think about WHY it is common knowledge to us. Again, the word comes from the Roman vulcanus. Why is it that the romans didn't use a pre-existing term if it was common knowledge? Common knowledge = common terminology. A camera in Japan is still a "camera" because they didn't invent it. So they try to pronounce it the best they can. Do you see my point?



"If it was a volcano, then Jethro and his family would not be living within a days walk from it, if he is tending Jethro's flock the the place where he is tending them would be a locale frequented by Jethro's family."


two things.

1. I think you're getting hung up on taking the bible literally instead of a story that is being retold.
2. There are no witnesses to what Moshe claims he saw

Exodus 3 says the burning bush happened at "the far side of the wilderness" near Horeb. Again... volcanoes can lay dormant for hundreds of years. I don't think we can assume with ANY certainty that someone wouldn't live there as if they know where all the volcanoes are. People live near volcanoes all the time. Look at Hawaii. Look at Crete. As many as 20,000 people were killed as a result of the volcanic explosion at Pompeii. But somehow you want to believe that a Midianite priest would be smart enough not to live close to one? I don't follow your logic. We have tons of people who live in tornado alley, tons of people who live near fault lines, tons of people who live below sea level in flood zones. But a Midianite priest wouldn't do any of these things?


"What we know about Volcanos is that when the become active it tends to be ongoing for several days if not years. So if God was the Volcano in Jethro's Country how could also be in the Moses Camp.
They not talking about a volcano"


Again... if they don't know what a volcano is then in their minds all they are connecting together is "mountain" and "fire". I've already proved this by showing you in the scriptures where they saw the "mountain" was "smoking". You are simply choosing to believe that wasn't a natural event. But in geology if you have a smoking mountain its most likely a volcano because the peak of a mountain is typically cold because of the altitude. Mountains and Islands are often formed by volcanic activity in the first place. Therefore, because of the size of the eruption there could have been other veins and areas where the pressure was trying to release itself. That doesn't mean that it had an eruption at all of these places.

The main point I'm making is in regards to the idea of "mountain" and "fire". The story can always be backfilled with the same elements. And once these elements are used in connection with God then instead of an idol of a calf, the Israelites would be thinking about fire and smoke and cloud. This could be created artificially if they wanted people to "see" the presences of God or an angel. However, if its just for the sake of story telling, one only has to write it into the narrative.

And the one thing you haven't taken into account is the fact that never once did the Israelites ever write about ANY "volcano" if they knew what one was. You're suggesting they did know but never wrote about one. Why not? How would there be an eruption, visible from space, visible from Egypt, an explosive force equal to more than 2,000 megatons of TNT, even causing crop failure in China...


possibly mentioned in the Egyptian Tempest Stele


But the bible... which we are to believe has a perfect recording of history going back to Adam... never mentions any such geological formation, as a volcano, at all. You want me to believe they knew what a volcano was and that it was common knowledge.

Show me a volcano in the bible then. What is the Hebrew word for volcano?


Even this site, that teaches Hebrew mentions "Exodus Decoded" and its suggestion that the Ten Plagues were caused by the Santorini eruption. This page also tells us that...

Volcanoes appearing in literary contexts may appear with richer description, as in the Biblical:

The One who glances at the earth and it shakes; who touches the mountains and they let out smoke. (Psalms 104)


So again... you're not getting a single word for volcano. In Hebrew volcanos are "raging" mountains. So they are known by their description. "they let out smoke". So even though we see this in psalms and hebrew speakers agree that is describing a volcano, the biblical writer obviously connects God to the geological event.

This is no different from people thinking that a god hurls lightning bolts. It's superstition caused by them not knowing the origin and reason these things exist and occur. What more proof do you need at this point?



"Jethro saw Yahweh as the most powerful God, and they worship Yahweh."

How would Jethro know about Yahweh? Are you forgetting that it was Moshe that even gave Yahweh this name? The first 5 books of the bible are attributed to Moshe. It would be incredibly easy to have invented the whole thing from a period of time after the Exodus. For all we know Jethro/Reuel/Hobab could have chosen to live somewhat near Horeb because it was called "mountain of God"... BECAUSE it was a volcano, not in spite of it. Some believe this is within the Sinai peninsula.

wikipedia: Jethro is revered as the chief prophet in the Druze religion.[24][7] They believe he was a "hidden" and "true prophet" who communicated directly with God and then passed on that knowledge to Moses, whom they describe as a "recognised" and "revealed prophet."[25][26] According to Druze belief, Moses was allowed to wed Zipporah, the daughter of Jethro, after helping save his daughters and their flock from competing herdsmen.

if Horeb was thought to be the "mountain of God" this could have been a place Jethro went to communicate in the same exact way that Moshe claimed to do at mount Sinai. Do you see the connection now? Moshe could have definitely learned the whole "mountain" "fire" relation to God from his father-in-law and simply created a new god and told the Israelites that it was the same God of their ancestors. But they didn't know that God and it had been 400 years. So just like with African Americans. After 300+ years of slavery a lot of us think that the god of the bible is the true God because that's what we were taught and because that's who we gave credit to for helping us gain freedom. Moshe could have told them anything but people tend to believe what they see. And that's where the "mountain", "fire", and "cloud" come in at. But you also see other effects of a volcano like tremors, lightning, and thunder. All of these things just so happen to be present but you're saying its not a volcano.

"So you saying this volcano Could be seen from Egypt but Jethro who lived under it and pastured his flocks on the mountain did not see it.....Thats like saying Christopher Columbus Discovered America"

No, I'm saying Jethro didn't see the burning bush. He likely believed that Horeb had some connection to god but that doesn't mean he knew it was a naturally occuring geological formation. He called it the mountain of God. Whose God?


"So you know what a pillar of smoke or cloud is now....Now in Numbers 12
5 Then the Lord came down in a pillar of cloud; he stood at the entrance to the tent"

yes... "came down in a pillar of cloud" is the same artistic license that says God descended on a mountain in fire. If you take it literally then you must believe "God came down". If you don't take it literally, then yes... it was a volcano, and it was probably just a fire near the temple; that, or it didn't happen at all and was just written into the story for dramatic effect. I mean according to Aaron the golden calf magically walked out of the fire. According to another writer, Jonah was swallowed by a whale, whole, and he survived inside it like it was a boat. Breathing oxygen and all.



quote:
The revelation at Sinai is not a quiet affair, as we read in the book of Exodus,

“Now Mount Sinai was all in smoke, for God had come down upon it in fire; the smoke rose like the smoke of a kiln, and the whole mountain trembled violently.” (Exodus 19:18)

Sounds like a volcano to me.

-end quote-

I encourage you to read the rest of this article from a jewish believer.


wikipedia: Horeb is thought to mean "glowing/heat", which seems to be a reference to the sun, while Sinai may have derived from the name of Sin, the Sumerian deity of the moon,[8][9] and thus Sinai and Horeb would be the mountains of the moon and sun, respectively.

chabad.org: We read in the Book of Kings1 how, hundreds of years after the giving of the Torah, Elijah the prophet fled the wicked queen Jezebel and took refuge in a cave on “the mountain of G‑d, Horeb,” which is identified as none other than Mount Sinai.


It is likely that this is exactly where they went and so Moshe already knew the dangers of the mountain because he had been told/warned by his midianite father-in-law, who didn't go to Egypt with him but was with them after they came out. The warnings about the mountain being sacred would disguise the fact that if there were vents releasing toxic gases they could have died in certain spots. But all this is dressed up in superstition which in turn is dressed up in religion.

 

ZealotX

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Jan 21, 2020
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Mount Sinai was volcano in Saudi Arabia, says scientist
By Roger Highfield Science Editor12:01AM BST 13 Jun 2003
Mount Sinai, where Scripture says Moses received God's Law, is located in Saudi Arabia, not Egypt's Sinai Peninsula - moving a key site for Judaism into the nation where Islam was founded, according to a Cambridge professor.

Science also backs traditional beliefs that the Israelites' exodus from Egypt was led by Moses, roughly the way that the Bible tells it, according to Prof Colin Humphreys of Cambridge University.

Prof Humphreys, a churchgoing Baptist and materials scientist, outlines his ideas in his forthcoming book: The Miracles of Exodus: A Scientist's Discovery of the Extraordinary Natural Causes of the Biblical Stories.

While other scholars have proposed that Sinai was in Arabia, Prof Humphreys argues that the holy mount must have been an active volcano, since it shook and emitted fire and smoke (Exodus 19:18). And he has carefully examined records ancient and modern to fix the site.

His candidate: present-day Mount Bedr in north-western Saudi Arabia, since there were no ancient volcanoes in what was later named the Sinai Peninsula.

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Prof Humphreys also thinks that near Mount Bedr, Moses experienced God's call at the "burning bush". He suggests that this was caused by flammable natural gas or volcanic gas escaping from the ground.

The Book of Exodus obviously underwent later editing, he said, but the evidence strongly suggests witness material that might well come from Moses himself. The book is "amazingly accurate and coherent", he said.

Prof Humphreys also offers other "naturalistic" explanations for wondrous events. For instance, he thinks that escalating natural disasters explain each of the 10 "plagues" that forced Pharaoh to let the Israelite slaves depart. The Nile "turned to blood" meant that toxic red algae killed fish, the dead fish forced frogs ashore, gnats and flies were drawn to the dead fish and frogs and the insects transmitted a virus that killed livestock.
 
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