- Jan 21, 2020
PS. I thank you for the stimulating conversation.
Yes and Moses is thus educated...everyone else given the money and blue print could have it done - thats my pointGood morning frankster, hope you are doing well.
"Most if not all construction projects require a plan...blue print."
but the point was that were educated people who could make the blue prints for the pyramids. However, that was very specialized knowledge that everyone didn't have. Everyone who practices music may be able to read Mozart and Bach but that's different from creating that music. So the point is that just because intelligence existed and there were people who could engineer the pyramids, that doesn't mean that everyone could do it.
Knowing what a volcano is...would be considered general knowledge."
No, that's general knowledge now. Flying today is general knowledge but I couldn't tell you how to design a jet engine or even an electric car engine. We can't look back and assume that everyone knew something as common knowledge that wasn't common. Even if there were 1,000 volcanoes in the area, that doesn't mean they were erupting with any type of frequency. Most volcanoes are dormant. So if a volcano wasn't active how would THEY know it was a volcano? We can tell because we have instruments and we can see into the ground with ground penetrating radar. That's the only way WE know. So assuming they knew, without these capabilities, I don't understand.
If it was a volcano, then Jethro and his family would not be living within a days walk from it, if he is tending Jethro's flock the the place where he is tending them would be a locale frequented by Jethro's family."Jethro and his people was familiar with it as they told Moses about the burning bush that is not consumed."
??? According to Ex 3, Moshe is the one who discovered the burning bush. I don't see anything in thie chapter suggesting someone else saw this bush. The problem is, that if no one else saw what Moshe claimed to see then you don't know that he wasn't making it up in order to sell a story to a bunch of uneducated people that their God was real. Since this story was written after the fact, he simply could have used the eruption, which they all witnessed, and then filled in a back story that involved the same fiery elements. Again, no where elese is God rendered in this way; just in the Mosaic testimony.
wikipedia: "Elsewhere in the Mediterranean are pumice deposits that could have been sent by the Thera eruption. Ash layers in cores drilled from the seabed and from lakes in Turkey, however, show that the heaviest ashfall was towards the east and northeast of Santorini. The ash found on Crete is now known to have been from a precursory phase of the eruption, some weeks or months before the main eruptive phases, and it would have had little impact on the island. Santorini ash deposits were at one time claimed to have been found in the Nile delta, but this is now known to be a misidentification."
note: there was a precursory phase of eruption. If Moshe saw this then he had enough time to construct a story, travel, and convince people that there was about to be a cataclysmic event that their God would be behind. And of course... he's the messenger/god sent by God.
Jethro saw Yahweh as the most powerful God, and they worship Yahweh."Now an actual volcano would consume the bush if it lit the bush as the description clearly declares it did."
Again... if Moshe is lying there is NO REASON to assume that there was even a bush at all. And why is it that the Midianite priest didn't convert to Judaism after witnessing the power of Yahweh when the bible says that there was a mixed multitude of Israelites and Egyptians who believed? You don't find this odd?
"The Hebrew people lived in Egypt, time for word to travel is a not an issue."
Except, that the point I'm making to you is that it was THROUGH MOSHE that the word traveled. And being most likely educated by priests, Moshe created a story around the volcano.
1610s, from Italian vulcano "burning mountain," from Latin Vulcanus "Vulcan," Roman god of fire, also "fire, flames, volcano" (see Vulcan). The name was first applied to Mt. Etna by the Romans, who believed it was the forge of Vulcan.
The same logic you're trying to apply to Egypt, look at how the Romans reacted to Mt. Etna. If we look at the etymology of the word we can trace it back to Romans and the fire god, Vulcan.
I disagree you can get relatively close to volcano without protective gear....and yes it is dangerous but doable.wikipedia: *Volca could therefore be a cognate of the Sanskrit words ulkā ("darting flame") and/or várcas- ("brilliance, glare").
The problem is... humans really can't get close to a volcano without advanced materials and very protective gear. If you cannot filter out the sulfur, you're dead. So no one in the ancient world would be able to report on exactly what a volcano was and they're only looking up at it, not down. This is like only looking up towards the brim of a paper cup. You can't see what's inside. So unless you can explain to me how they would have been able to observe a volcano without jumping to superstitious conclusions I'm left unconvinced that they knew what a volcano was when there wasn't even a word for it spreading around the planet until the Romans. And their explanation was superstitious in nature and shows that they weren't informed by any prior reporting, including Moshe's or anyone else who witnessed/survived the Minoan eruption.
So you saying this volcano Could be seen from Egypt but Jethro who lived under it and pastured his flocks on the mountain did not see it.....Thats like saying Christopher Columbus Discovered AmericaYou listed a number of volcanoes but if they don't have reports of eruptions in the BC time period that doesn't help your case. They had no way of knowing these were volcanoes just because we do.
"Now you saying these people do not know the difference between smoke coming from an alter and smoke coming from a volcano. How stupid do you think these people are????"
Again... it's not about being smart. It's about being superstitious. In the exact same way that the Romans reacted to Etna and thought it was the forge of a the fire god, Vulcan, there's no reason to believe the Israelites weren't equally superstitious. Even those who did science even in modern times were often superstitious as well and applied superstition when they didn't know the natural origins of a thing. So why should people in ancient times be any different? Why would they differentiate smoke coming from an alter from smoke coming from a volcano? The only difference is scale. And that's why the smoke coming from the volcano was referred to as a "cloud". But even Moshe thought that he could correlate a small fire (burning bush) with a large fire. Because that's exactly what he did. So who's to say that when they burned an offering that they didn't think the fire was somehow God's way of "consuming" the meat. After all... it was being "consumed" by the fire. Add to this, the way the bible depicts the smell of burning animal flesh. The way that God is written to react to it implies he knew how it "tasted".
So... basically, meat eating humans were implying that God ate meat also, because by implication God could smell it as something that smelled good. Again... its not about being smart or stupid. It's about being superstitious. When you are superstitious you simply use your intelligence to defend it.
"Jethro has lived in the presence of the burning bush, he did not seemed scared just respectful....if he was scared he would moved."
There is no reason to believe the bush was always burning or that it burned before or after the encounter with Moses. The reason it burned was not a natural occurrence, according to Exodus 3, but rather because a "messenger" of God was speaking to Moshe from the flames. There's no need to believe an angel was just hanging out in a bush for no reason, and decided to talk once it saw Moshe. No, Exodus is pretty clear that this wasn't something Jethro saw or knew about. Furthermore, again we have an archetyping.
Ex 3 Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the MOUNTAIN OF GOD. 2 There the angel of the Lord appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up.
Then only other reference to anything even remotely close would be Genesis 22:2. And the reason I say that one is because it had to be a special mountain. But there's no reason, I can find, to call Horeb "the mountain of God" UNLESS... it is named this only after the inclusion of the burning bush in the story. And so now, again, the archetype is set up... mountain... fire... God. Come on, I know its fun to debate, but tell me you cannot see where I'm coming from at least.
Exodus 20:18 And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the MOUNTAIN SMOKING: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.
11 So that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of the LORD.
This might have been a problem for my argument if it weren't for verse 5
5 And king Solomon, and all the congregation of Israel, that were assembled unto him, were with him before the ark, sacrificing sheep and oxen, that could not be told nor numbered for multitude.
An actual cloud (As we know it) is a mass of water vapor or ice crystals suspended in the atmosphere. It forms when water condenses in the sky. Fog can be considered a type of low-laying cloud that is heavily influenced by nearby bodies of water.
So a few possibilities come to mind.
1- it was smoke from the burnt offerings but on a scale that was big enough for them to call a cloud
2- it was fog partially influenced by their activity along with a local water source.
3- it was steam or vapor as a result of putting out the fires from the burnt offerings
3, I think, is the most probable. Wouldn't they know that putting out a fire with water is going to create smoke? Of course. And would there be too much for them to stay inside of a tent? Yes. But does it mean they wouldn't use that as proof of the presence of God? Pastors and preachers lie ALL THE TIME, saying "God is here. He's in this room. I can feel his presence, yada yada yada." You've likely heard this many times. And yet, you felt nothing, just the energy in the room generated by believers. But pastors MUST, to some degree, say things like this in order to keep up with the Jones. They don't think they're lying because the believe God is everywhere and yet... if the pastor at another church says "God is here" you don't want people in your congregation to believe God doesn't "come by here".
The angel of God, who had been going before the camp of Israel, moved and went behind them; and the pillar of cloud moved from before them and stood behind them. So it came between the camp of Egypt and the camp of Israel; and there was the cloud along with the darkness, yet it gave light at night. Thus the one did not come near the other all night.
So you know what a pillar of smoke or cloud is now....Now in Numbers 12Here's the problem... When you're talking about the cloud in exodus its a "pillar". But the cloud in 1 Kings was simply inside a tent. I see pillars of clouds all the time everytime I pass by a factories or power plants that have exhaust stacks. And especially if the air is colder you can see what looks like cloud formation. But these wouldn't light up at night. What would light up at night is a FIRE. I repeat... clouds/smoke... are not a light source. If you have a pillar of "cloud/smoke" that is emanating light then there is a fire there. But you may not see it in the day because of the smoke and because it is diffusing with the light from the sun. But at night... you could see it.
Because its a volcano.
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