Science and Technology : Do You Believe In UFOs

ZealotX

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Jan 21, 2020
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It is not a Volcano because it stood at the tent and between two encampments and it is descending smoke, so whatever Moses was describing was not a volcano.
lol. I didn't say THAT was a volcano. What I was trying to relay to you is that the story tellers are using the same CONCEPT/IDEA of smoke and fire in order to get people to relate this with the presence of God. God was present, according to them, the smoke and fire at Sinai/Horeb. So now this is an established THEME that can be used in other places.


MLK....

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that this is relevant enough for me to listen and comment on the video.

good speech.

MLK, like many preachers, is good. He is passionate, energetic, and charismatic. But that doesn't mean the "voice of Jesus" he heard was anything other than his own consciousness utilizing his memories and the ideas contained within his neural network in order to comfort him the same way that other people think they see ghosts or talk to loved ones who have passed. If you believe something strong enough your mind tries to make it true. Your mind cannot see, hear, taste, touch. It's experiences are fed to it and influenced through other systems (mostly the nervous system). I had my own experiences of having Night Terrors. I thought I saw what I could only describe to you as a succubus, attacking me in my sleep. At the time I believed in demons. And at the time I hadn't gotten a sleep study to know that I had sleep apnea and didn't know that I wasn't breathing.

In other words... I was ignorant and that ignorance was a breeding ground for superstition. My MIND filled in the gaps of knowledge with beliefs because it wanted and needed to make sense of my experience but it had no scientific basis in fact to do so. I was "UNFAMILIAR" with sleep apnea and sleep paralysis. It didn't help that I was up late at night. But to me it's one of the most frightening experiences you can have because you don't know if you're sleep or awake because both words are colliding. Many people see demons or shadows as a result. And when I was paralyzed I fought to move my body or even yell, but couldn't do it.

Am I lying? Absolutely not. I recall a similar experience at least twice, but the memory of 1 sometimes seems like 2. But does that mean I saw a real demon? No. Could I try to say that the real medical things that was happening to my body put me in some kind of altered state of consciousness in which I could interact with demons and it was a real attack and when I mentally called on God/Jesus he came and saved me? I could tell you that and many people (who already believe) would believe that. Because they want to believe.

So I'm saying this... that there are rational and scientific explanations for things. At the same time our minds also play a role in what we experience and that experience is influenced by our beliefs. Intelligence, is a recursive loop of processing information. That's how learning is achieved. But the mind really doesn't care between reality an imagination. Our ego does. If you have a photo of your family on your phone, do you think your phone cares that's a photo of real people? Of course not. So on a "biological hardware" level part of us doesn't really care whether stimuli is real or not. Our brains just want to identify it in order to classify it. Children have more nightmares and tend to see things in the dark more than adults because their brains have to be trained to classify everything they see, even when there isn't enough light. And if it can't do it, and it can grab an idea from their imagination, maybe something like something they saw previously on TV, the brain don't give a **** where that image came from. It just matches it. And so the child sees something that is not just the thing, but partially the monster they think it might be.

A good modern example I think I can use is autocomplete the way that you text on your phone, or you are typing an email in gmail... the system is trying to recognize what you are saying, even before you say it. But this recognition is all about patterns and it has to be trained. And the dumber it is the more nonsensical the result is. However, the more it trains the more accurate it becomes, the better it gets. Such is the future of AI.

So with all due respect to Dr. King, just because he was a powerful man and a good man, doesn't mean he was a scientist or that he was factually correct about everything he ever experienced in life. And I don't need to be influenced by his interpretation of his own experiences. Neither do you. It is a choice you make. Preachers are in a position to be motivated by the desire to make people believe. In some cases I think this makes them prone to lie. In other cases I believe this makes them susceptible to faulty or superstitious interpretations in which their own "internal voice" begins to mimic their belief and so they are literally talking to themselves but they think they're talking to God or Jesus or Mary or whoever.
 

ZealotX

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Jan 21, 2020
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What Kind of proof would you accept?
all I have is a witness testimony at this point, that can be corroborated with other witness testimony.
All you have is witness testimony. That's a problem. One of the 10 commandments (most likely meaning one of the 10 most common "sins") is thou shalt not bear false witness.

I like science. It has physical evidence; testing with repeatable results.

People lied and fabricated so often that it is literally all over the bible. Aaron did it. Abraham did it. Jacob did it. Like... just read the bible straight through. Maybe you have already. There are people lying almost constantly. When we look back in hind sight it's like we put these people on such a pedestal as if they cannot lie. And that's ridiculous. That's like waiting 5,000 years from now and reading the history of the US and thinking everything Trump said was true. You're more likely to think someone's lying if you feel like you are on their side. People who read the bible tend to side with the Israelites. Other nations had gods too. Other nations fought to defend themselves against Israelites trying to conquer them. And they acted like these wars were noble when in reality it was the same manifest destiny bs that Europeans used when they took America from native Americans. It was the same "you don't believe in our God so we're allowed to take your land" bs that was used as an excuse to conquer Canaan.

There is no spiritual argument for starting a nation. All it means is that you fail to integrate into the society of the people that already live in that place. And you are intolerant of how other cultures may be different from yours to the point that you want to kill them to get rid of them. We glorify violence and oppression when we're not the ones being oppressed and killed. That is the truth; a painful truth.

And because they assumed that they couldn't get along with other people, nor could they get them to believe in their god, they chose to fight them and wipe them out. The 10 commandments says thou shalt not kill, but I asked you if someone told you that God told them to tell you to kill 5 people at a shopping mall, you said "Of course not". But that's EXACTLY what happened in the bible. That's EXACTLY what Moses told them. They killed people, minding their own business, because someone else told them that God told them to tell them... that they should kill those people. And if their numbers were about equal then maybe you had to kill 1-2 people each. This is the same mental calculus people are using today to justify Jihad. That's all it is. It is a political power using religion as an excuse to gain more power. But because someone told us God told them to tell us to kill, people kill for that person, thinking they are killing for God. But if God controls everything like you give him credit for then why do people need to do any of this for him? The same is true today. The same was true in the time of Moses. So if I don't believe someone's "witness" today, when plenty of people, including Jesus, died on the word of false witnesses, why would I believe someone telling me that God told them to tell me to kill 5 people at a mall?

Or would it change anything if, instead of mall, I said Canaan?

I'm happy you wouldn't randomly kill 5 people. But what happens when you add organization to this same question? What happens if you first establish the credibility of this person telling you to kill by making them a magician and saying their magical power comes from God? Never mind that other nations had magicians too. His magic beats their magic. So does the best magician = best God? Is this enough to make the magician into your ruler? King? Is this enough to where you pay them taxes on land they make you fight for? What if by killing those 5 people in the mall, you get to be part owner of the mall? Are you interested now? Or do you have a moral dilemma? Is it simply immoral to kill those 5 people?

But what if God defines morality and this person tells you that it is moral as long as God is telling you, through him, to do it? You don't want to defy God, do you? You don't want to disobey the king of the universe, do you? If you disobey a king, can't he execute you? Let's not even consider whether the king should or shouldn't based on his own morality. We get taught that kings have these powers. And because we get taught that we continue to give them that power. But... they know it has limits. So to avoid rebellions and revolts it would be extremely helpful to maintaining their power if somehow they could convince people that they were king by divine right; that God had chosen them. Then therefore, everything they do is moral; even genocide. And therefore, people who defy them are defying God.

So do you see?

Do you see how religion can be used as political calculus? Even in ancient times? Do you think Trump goes to the National Prayer Breakfast to pray? Trump is literally the only person I know who has said "two Corinthians" instead of "Second Corinthians". It's about power. And this is how people were exploited. And so when I ask you if you would kill 5 people... I really want you to really marinate on that and then imagine yourself as an Israelite fresh out of Egypt. Imagine that, through free will, people worshiped the golden calf, and now you are being told to kill them. Let's say 5 of them. Would you do it?
 

ZealotX

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Jan 21, 2020
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I must say it is fun reasoning with you and I enjoy reading your response.....for that I am grateful to you.
I look forward to our continued exchanged

likewise. Even though I disagree with you I do value and respect your views and intelligence.
 

frankster

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Aug 3, 2014
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If they saw a car driving through the desert does that mean they now know what a car is? Or would they simply describe it based on what they saw? Does it make them familiar with cars?
Yes I would describe what I saw....
If I kept on seeing it over sometime I would consider myself somewhat familiar with it...especially I could identify more details about it.

No. It does not make them familiar with volcanoes if they can remove the pillars of cloud and fire from the mountain. What this tells me is that YOU now recognize that there were definitely volcanoes in their surroundings and that they came into contact with at least 1. That, is MY POINT. They were familiar to the extent they experienced one. They were not familiar to the extent that they understood how it worked. And when you don't know how a volcano works you really don't know what a volcano is because it IS how it works. Otherwise, it's just a mountain. They didn't attribute the working of the "mountain" to underground and pressurized magma and gas. They attributed the working of the "mountain" TO GOD! It's the same as this:
Scientist today do not fully understand electricity but they know how to use it and describe its functions.
I do not know auto mechanics but I can drive a car and I am familiar with its benefits and dangers.


This article shows you exactly how ancient people created myths around volcanoes.
A lot of people think the bible is all fiction. I don't. Because I don't think human imagination is that good. Instead, what happens is that real events get twisted and turned into myths and legends. These stories, because of their audacity and artistic license, survive for generations; long after the original events. So you can know that there was a literal event that happened but it doesn't mean the supernatural parts of the story are literally true.
We agree the Bible is not just full of pure myth.
Nothing is supernatural....all things are natural, your understanding may make it seems supernatural.

The problem with Moses, is that his literal parts of the story include genocide against all those who didn't believe he was in communication with the mythical god of the volcano. You don't even want to see it as a volcano because you believe Moses.
Moses description of the behavior of the smoke and fire....makes it not a volcano

To see the volcano you have to "unsee", in your mind, things that you have convinced yourself are true. I sympathize with your situation because I was a believer too. And then I started seeing things one after the next that eventually unraveled the whole ball of yarn.
Good for you

You want to believe God exists so when given the opportunity... when given a story... we latch on. But sometimes we don't recognize or remember that there were many stories from many places. And it doesn't mean that one story is right. It just means that people of all cultures and locales were absolutely willing to make up stories to support their beliefs. But we always have in our history, certain people, who still to this day, claim to be in contact with God, and they are usually the ones in a position to ask you for money. And the idea is that they will use their relationship with that invisible god/goddess to give you an invisible advantage in life.
Yes there are many Holy Scripture from diverse cultures and I have read several.
God is Breathe, so yes God exists.
No single story from any culture is right or wrong, what is important is the meaning you take from it
If you Breathe you are in contact with God...on this animal (physical) level.

And so it spawns other beliefs, like how God will protect travelers if you pray, as if he wont do it if you don't; as if he is willing and able to play traffic cop for millions of people but constantly either fails or makes people crash on purpose; including devout Christians.
God never fails
It is not whether you pray or not that is important....It is what you know think do believe and accept.
Prayer is a Tool

While the thought of a super powerful magical being watching your back 24/7 is comforting, it is not reality and devout people die just like everyone else. And sometimes the most horrible people become POTUS. And people STILL think God did it because they think literally everything is his will. That's a lie. They are simply giving all the credit, but if the world was under that degree of control then you wouldn't have to pay tithes or offerings to help anyone. Everyone would receive help through supernatural means.
God does not play favorites, and he showers his blessing on all who obeys his Laws for God is Law of Life
Supernatural does not exist...all is natural.

Amos 3:6
Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?


So to me... the bible clearly has a myth surrounding a volcano just like it clearly has a myth surrounding a flood (possibly a tsunami), a myth surrounding a whale, an possibly a myth surrounding a tornado, giants, unicorns, dragons, etc. All these things have truthful ELEMENTS. But those elements are used to create fictional stories. Did David kill 10,000? No. They weren't writing a historically accurate journal. They were just like us. They enjoyed fiction and non-fiction, sci-fi, and fantasy. Because they were human. So they lied and told stories just like Santa and the Easter bunny. That part of us has never changed. So why take everything they said literally? There indeed was a saint Nicholas but could he fly? No.
You are so entitle...to have and to hold your own opinions and beliefs.

I'm not trying to disprove your whole belief system and attack your faith. I'm simply telling you that Horeb was a volcano and that they likely saw the eruption of Santorini. And Exodus was their way of speaking to that experience. But understand that when you mythologize these real events and phenomenon in a STORY, that story does not need to maintain scientific consistency. I never said they said that smoke was descending. I said they said that GOD DESCENDED inside that smoke and fire. I even showed you where God supposedly was warning Moses that they would "see" but that they had to stay back to keep from really seeing "him". Again... this is Exodus 19. And it clearly tells you that there is a mountain involved.
I do not dispute what Horeb was or is....I just saying that is not what Moses described.
So God was in the smoke & fire? but not the smoke or fire??....Correct??

Your response earlier led to that conclusion on my part, what you are now saying is a little different.
I quote
#54 "There isn't even enough material on the top of a mountain to sustain a fire, so it wasn't that God's presence ignited the mountain but that his presence was the fire."
#56 "They thought the fire was God "descending" upon the mountain top."

Now that makes then even more sophisticated, for in this instance according to you they know that God is not the fire but in it...Yes or No?

12 And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying, Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death:

And then it clearly tells you that cloud was coming from this location because they had traveled to the mountain, being led by the pillar of "cloud" and fire. How would these things lead them to a mountain if they were not coming from the mountain? Clearly, it was a volcano.

16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.

And now, here is their description of an eruption event. The "anan" (cloud) that was visible in 16 is clearly the result of the ashan ("Smoke") in 18. The smoke becomes the cloud!

18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.

SEE? The smoke ASCENDS. Just like the smoke of a what? A FURNACE. A mountain with a furnace inside is a what?

A VOLCANO!
Based on what you are now saying the Lord is not the smoke or fire....so they now have made a distinction between God and Your Volcano...cause the smoke and fire are parts of the volcano

And the eruption even caused an earthquake. But the reason why this is mythical is because of the idea that God DESCENDED upon it in fire. That is added to what is already going on, what is already obviously a volcano. But the fire isn't explained as "oh that was a volcano". No the fire is credited to God descending upon it which is why for hundreds of years Christianity was treating this mountain as JUST a mountain, not a volcano which it obviously was.
God is the cause of the fire but he is not the fire, so they are not worshipping the fire they are worship God who resides in the fire

21 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go down, charge the people, lest they break through unto the LORD to gaze, and many of them perish.

This proves that NO ONE SAW God. All this is presented like a curtain that was hiding God from sight. And the people were warned that God would "break forth upon them". (v22-24)

So whoever wrote this likely captured the idea, transferred through oral tradition, of a volcano but... because it was non-direct retelling they were disconnected from what it actually was and the story grew into myth because someone was hearing it some time in the future just like we read the story some time in the future and as a result we come away thinking that there was this cloud that was flying through the desert just in front of the Israelites and at night it turned into a pillar of fire, COMPLETELY DISEMBODIED, just floating in the air, like MAGIC.... because like you said... magic is science that isn't understood.
But it is the nature of clouds to fly through the air disembodied.
What is not in the nature of clouds is to turn into fire in the night and come like a pillar in front of a tent or between two encampments.....perhaps its a fog.


And so it appears to be magic UNTIL you factor in the mountain, the earthquake, the thunder, the lightning, the loud noise, the smoke, the threats not to touch the mountain, or try to get close enough to see... the people trembling in fear. Brotha when you combine all of that all of these ideas like separate pieces of glass, each with a drawing that all line up and the image they create together is a volcano. And if you want to believe that God used a volcano, that's FINE. I'm not trying to take that away from you. You can give God credit for every natural disaster if you want; including the tornadoes that ravaged Ohio and Tennessee, but that's a matter faith. What I'm saying is that this was factually a volcano. I'm not arguing your beliefs. I'm saying this was a volcano. Now if you want to believe that on a separate occasion God dispensed with the whole volcano thing and descended in front of the temple in a much smaller way that wasn't a fire and was only smoke? I don't see a reason why there would be a scientifically valid explanation for smoke in Exodus 19 but not one for the smoke in front of the temple. We can argue about that separate event if you want. But my goal was to establish that the pillar of fire and "cloud" was the effect of a volcano.
All natural disaster are to be credited to God...nothing good bad or indifferent happens without God.
Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

For me, not you, this destroys the credibility of Moses because in MY view, not yours, he used the beliefs of the people to say that this was God in the volcano and that it was proof that he was both real and in communication. And that communication made him a "god to pharaoh" and ruler over the Israelites.
So God is not the Volcano... but in the Volcano
 
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