Amun-Ra : Celibacy at Issue?

Amun-Ra

Well-Known Member
MEMBER
A Couple of Notes

The Catholic Church invented the Bible--they decided what was Bible and what was not Bible, they actually voted on the gospels to be included and those not to be, the edited the Bible and especially the part we all know as the New Testament--it was literally decided by a vote, the Gnostic gospels fall nowhere in the new testament not do the James versions which are kept at the Vatican but well known, the protestants may have split from the CHURCH, but they took 66 books the Catholic church prescribed as the Bible. In fact, there was no Bible until the Catholic Church created one some 300 years after the death of Christ. The King James Version of the Bible, which most people are familiar with, was the 45th in a long line of translations and retranslation of the Bible. Therefore, on that note the Protestant church is very much in tune with the Catholic Church theologically speaking, just not in practical agreement. It must also be understood that there are various versions and editions, the versions being different translations and the editions being edited or modifications of the “versions.”

Secondly, perhaps you misunderstood youth to mean children. It is indeed the young who must change the church. Martin Luther, who started the protestant reform, was in his 40's when he set the world of religion on its ear with his theses. Compared to the church fathers, he was a young man. Change in religion has always come about through the younger, mature adults of the church as the elders have more interest in keeping the status quo. Martin Luther King Jr. set the elders to rocking because he spoke out from the pulpit and politically--this was considered subversive to the ways of the church and he was a relatively young man. Right now, gospel music is doing much the same. Kirk Franklin is a good example. He is changing the way religious music is viewed. Many do not like it, but it will not change if the elders are expected to do it.

True enough that molestation charges are not hawked in the newspapers they are when it is church scandal, but it definitely a problem everywhere in society. Boy Scout camps, Sunday schools, youth camps, fathers molesting their daughters, politicians and you name it--it is a problem that is not endemic to the church or religion. And as far as Canon Law is concerned, The Council of Trent decided that the Pope is the "legitimate" successor to Peter--not God--and each Pope is said to be the spiritual successor to the one before him dating back to Peter. Of course, few people know that there have been multitudes of Popes with sometime three serving at the same time because of politics. The Pope is not considered God, although there is a legacy of infallibility connected to the papacy, it is not prescribed as such, but only as a servant of God and the successor of Peter. Of course, it is a convoluted idea, but much of what is organized religion escapes rationality under the guiding hand of men.

Before the King James version of the Bible ever saw the light of day there were at least 70 versions before it including the Tyndale Bible, one the protestant chuch's greatest scholars. Tyndale ended up fleeing for his life, although later his version of the Bible served as the model for the most popular version--the King James Version.



Ra

;)
 

Mike Ramey

Well-Known Member
MEMBER
Ah, but let's not forget...

Glad you got my post, Ra.

No, the Catholic Church created their own Bible. If you compare the Catholic Bible to the KJV, from around 300 AD, there are TWO distinctive lines of Biblical thought. One leading to the formation of the Catholic Church (through the Alexandrian cult), and the True Carriers of the Word of God leading to the KJV. Constantine, the Roman Head of State at the time, succeeded in doing the next step of compromise--putting forth a state merger with religion, which led to the formal establishment of what we now know as the Church of Rome, or the Catholic Church.

According to the CODE that I mentioned, the Pope is held to be GOD in the Catholic Faith. He is held to be infallable; he also is held to represent Christ, and he is also held to speak for the Holy Spirit. In fact, the CODE makes it clear that Protestants (those who won't side with Rome) are Heritics in the Highest Degree.

Martin Luther broke with Rome over the sale of Indulgences. The 95 Thesies that Luther nailed on the Whittenburg door was the formal break...because Luther read the Bible--the Protestant version, and came OUT of Rome over one piece of scripture..."The Just Shall Live by Faith!"

Yes, man has messed things up! However, in the USA, while there are 450 Denomiations, there are also 1,500 active cults. God, through his word, ONLY set TWO standards: Those who are with Him in Christ Jesus, and those who are NOT! Man has, indeed, corrupted the system.

Man, in the Roman Catholic Church, also messed up when it comes to Celebacy. Peter WAS married! Mary (the earthly mother of Jesus Christ) HAD more children with Joseph AFTER Christ was born. The Catholic Bible leaves these facts OUT.

Celebacy is NOT a requirement for PROTESTANT ministers, as Paul proclaimed that one of the requirements for church leadership was that a minister or deacon was the husband of ONE wife...meaning that the man did not practice POLYGAMY or BIGAMY. Rome, to keep her priests in line, opted for celebacy...which is something man CANNOT do. Paul was NOT married by CHOICE; not by FORCE.

Yes, the scandal in the Roman church is a shame, and the children are suffering. Will Rome change? Not under this present Pope! Its been covered up for years. However, get a copy of THE CODE OF CANON LAW. To truly understand HOW Rome functions.

One last thing; man may have messed up concerning the church, but the True Church does NOT belong to man...it is the property of God, through Jesus Christ. Christianity is NOT a religion, but a RELATIONSHIP. Anything other that this is a sham.

Mike Ramey
 

Amun-Ra

Well-Known Member
MEMBER
The Bible Came From Catholicism

You can paint this one however you want but the Bible came from Catholicism--the one true Christian church--the start--the mother of them all--until Luther and then the splits and versions number in the hundreds--the Pentatuch was considered a separate part--the Old Testament--the book of Judaism--but the Catholic Church had it all--after it was a Jewish sect that split from Judaism. Personally, it makes absolutely no difference to me because of uses the book have been put to over the ages and the people who have killed millions (protestants and Catholics) in its name, but without Universalism (Catholics) there was no Christiam church and there was no Bible. Yes, the Catholics did pick and choose which parts they would set to doctrine. Nevertheless the 66 books of the Bible were voted on and selected by the Catholic Church.

Ra

;)
 

Mike Ramey

Well-Known Member
MEMBER
Have to disagree with you at this point...

Hate to throw a roadbock up in the party, Ra, but ya DON'T know Jack on the formation of the 66 Books of the Bible. The Catholic Bible contains MORE than 66 books. That's where the rub comes in, because they included the 'fables' of the Alexandrian translators, ie the Acrophia (sp)...those middle books of the scriptures. Just like the Koran (Quoran) doesn't count without the Hadith, the Catholic Bible doesn't count without the middle section, inbetween the Old and New Testaments.

WHEN the KJV was translated for the WORLD to see, the Catholic papacy tried its best to get the translators to insert the Acrophia. They refused, repeatedly! The Catholics then tried to, in this order: Blow up Parliament, Assassinate King James, Assassinate the more than 50 scholars who were involved in the translation.

Now, this is from the CODE OF CANON LAW, the governing document for the Roman Catholic Church, and I'll paraphrase: Scripture does NOT count, unless it is in LATIN. This came out of the Vatican II Council in 1964, and was approved by Pope John Paul the II, as it takes any major revision in the Catholic Church years to make it to approval. By the way, this is the same method used to approve of saints, etc.

I'm not trying to rain on your parade, Ra. Check out the Book THE TWO BABYLONS. It breaks down the tracking of the Catholic Bible and the Protestant Bible in clear detail. Plus, a great website that has the FULL, blow by blow description of the Catholic debate is www.jesus-is-lord.com. It is owned by a wonderful sister who has spent a lot of time assembling the documentation, including extensive documentation as to the 'whys' behind the recent molestation epidemic in the Catholic church.

Just trying to let you know that the truth is out there.

Mike Ramey
 

dnommo

Well-Known Member
MEMBER
My oh my...another strong viewpoint on the issues. Hey RA, i leave for a while and you find someone else to pay with :lol ...

Mike, you bring good points and i am enjoying both sides of this debate but i would like to express that in the process of agreeing that celibacy is fallable, the discussion should not fall away into debate over what is and is not the Bible. The key matter here is that the Bible is the Word of God through inspiration and revelation. Even today scholars (or theologians) are still find bits and pieces of text recording the events of the biblical era. I myself am amazed at the findings and would hope that a compilation of all texts made available for discussion.

I also agree with you about Paul choosing to be single but also remeber that his reasoning behind it is also the reason the Catholic church incorporated it as a part of their CODE. Paul wrote that
An unmarried man is concerned about the things of the Lord--how he may please the Lord. 33 But a married man is concerned about the things of the world--how he may please his wife-- 34 and he is divided. An unmarried woman or a virgin is concerned about the things of the Lord, so that she may be holy both in body and in spirit. But a married woman is concerned about the things of the world--how she may please her husband. 35 Now I am saying this for your own benefit, not to put a restraint on you, but because of what is proper, and so that you may be devoted to the Lord without distraction. I Cor. 7:32-36
He also states, a few verses earlier, that each one must live his life in the situation the Lord assigned when God called him. Paul spoke highly of being single but also made clear that married couples are not isolated from the work of God. The Catholic Church instituted celibacy as a means to prevent the possibility of priest being focussed on the things of man. This was their thinking in an era where the church was regarded in a pcompletely different ligth as today. Also the Catholic church was very active in the political arena od the days as well as the Early Years of the church.

Today, especially in this socitey, where there is a strong support for seperation of church and state, the power in which the church, not God, has is dwindling.

Whenever a particular denomination places a man in the position of God, then they are no longer a strong supporter of the God based belief system. Moreso, they are a god based, not God based. As stipulated in Old Testament teaching of one and only one God, placing a person in such a position leaves room for dissention. the Catholic church is suffering from the secrets coming to light now. They will continue to suffer as long as they believe that the way they do things is right.

I will check out those sites you posted, Mr. Ramey...You have offered good information...

Ra, once again you have given us a place to reflect...
 

Amun-Ra

Well-Known Member
MEMBER
Didn't mention the Catholic Bible

I didn't mention it the Catholic Bible--you did--in the vernacular--the Bible is usually considered the KJV--and the point still is the Catholic church determined what was in that Bible and still has access to the documentation--and the Bible that is argued is the Protestant Bible--yes, the Catholic Bible has many books, gospels and even records that have never seen the general light of day, but it does not override the fact that the Bible the Protestant world uses came from the Catholic church.

I never did get to finish this post--the net died and along with it--my PC. I was going to say we have a live one in Mike Ramey and that is good to see. It seems like your are the only one who will come out here and say anything about religion be it positive or negative. Hopefully, we can keep this going. It helps me think and when I speak in public, it keeps me fresh--plus, I always learn something new from these exchanges.

By the way, I just picked up on some interesting reading concerning suicide and martyrdom. An interesting piece saying that perhaps Jesus committed suicide. At first this seemed a rather silly thing to postulate and then the reasoning behind made me think.

Suicide is the willful taking of one's own life. If we accept that definition, it is clear that any taking of one's own life in Biblical context would be a sin. The author contends that since Jesus actually had the power to change the outcome of the crucifixion, that he committed suicide by doing nothing to stop it. Of course, the other side of that argument is that, perhaps, he had no power to stop it, in which case as part of the Holy Trinity makes him either entirely human with no power, the son of God with miraculous powers but no power over that situation which throws us back to the first case or he knowingingly withheld his powers and thus assisted in the taking of his own life--suicide.

I thought I was going to laugh at first and then the more I thought about it, th emore I realized that there is room here for substantitive argument. Have you seen this one?

Ra
 

Astrologer4U

Well-Known Member
MEMBER
I saw someone mention R. Kelly, I think the issue with him as well as other men like him is, they tend to think that if a female child is physically developed like a grown up woman, that makes her a woman. R. Kelly is a selfish man in the physical, but he is a child in the mind. This does not justify his behaviour, but it just goes to show that a man who desires a child has to be suffering with some kind of mental distortion which has caused him not to mentally grow up and therefore, a grown woman is an intimidation for him.

In this video, a man who used to be friends with R Kelly Say's R, Kelly watched his daughter grow up and when his daughter made the age 20, R.Kelly got with the girl behind his back. All though his daughter is age 20, he Say's that mentally his daughter was 15 in the mind because she was vulnerable. Which brings me to this question, at what age does a a girl become a woman? In America, 18 is considered an adult but an 18 year old can not go to the bar. Age 21 is when one is considered full adult enough to go to the bar but does that really make them an adult because they can now legally buy alcohol beverages?



Check out his wife, she don't seem like she all the way there either...


In this video R Kelly brother says that his brother can't read, write comprehend that he is illiterate.



I said all of that to say this, how do we as a society learn to detect when a man or a woman has a distorted mind, that heavily borders on childhood, or teenage hood if you will? And, how do we as a society prevent distorted minds from coming into existence? Also, how do we determind what is of age?

If we can not cover those issues, pedophiles will always exist and as long as they exist, we as a society will not be able to defeat them if we don't know how to detect them or prevent them from coming into existence. We all played some kind of roll in these kinds of situations. Some of us have family members who knew about uncles in the family doing things to one of the female young girls and and they said or did nothing about it.
 

Da Street So'ja

Banned
MEMBER
YOU MAKE THE GREATEST POINT YET

I said all of that to say this, how do we as a society learn to detect when a man or a woman has a distorted mind,
but what does a society do when distortion is promoted as "normal"
or just "being yourself"

you're talking my language with your insight here A4U

this fix goes deeper than then just a vulnerable teenager, because a
vulnerable teenager or adult can get involved in more than sex out there

so when you say detect? who does the detection?
what are we to do when the very people we go to for help are the very people engaged in this types of behavior?

:thinking:
 

Astrologer4U

Well-Known Member
MEMBER
but what does a society do when distortion is promoted as "normal"
or just "being yourself"

you're talking my language with your insight here A4U

this fix goes deeper than then just a vulnerable teenager, because a
vulnerable teenager or adult can get involved in more than sex out there

so when you say detect? who does the detection?
what are we to do when the very people we go to for help are the very people engaged in this types of behavior?

:thinking:
There is probably nothing we can do, this pedophile behavior has been taking place for centuries. African men marry young girls and they even marry several young girls at one time. Not all Africans practice this but some of them do. So even amongst the African culture, this is happening. The ones who practice marrying young girls, for them, it is normal. The young girls who marry these men, to them it is also normal because that is all they know until another distorted society goes and pushes that their behavior is wrong. Meanwhile, the distorted society is doing worse things because they are not even marrying the young girls, they are just molesting them and having their way with them. Which goes back to this, at what age does a young girl become a woman, what age is appropriate for womanhood? It used to be that as soon as a young woman starts her menstruation, she is considered a woman. In some African cultures, a rights of passage is practiced for the men. After the rights of passage is complete at the age 12 a boy is now a man. It used to be that a girl had to know certain things, a rights of passage, before she was considered a woman as well. Now age is the only factor which determinds adulthood. Then you have those who preech that age does not matter. We are all distorted and jacked the heck up, none of us know what we are talking about...:qqb016:
 
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